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zhnkiu 53 ( +1 | -1 )
Four Knights w/o 5...d5 I hear some groans from my mentioning of this openning. Mark that this is the openning pretty much everyone starts with as a beginner: Nxf7 hoping to fork Q&R. No one could stop this in elementary school. I've even lost a couple as black against 1000 ELo.
Not such a bad situation for black, is it? Accepting a bishop-knight vs. rook-pawn middlegame, I sometimes think black has the better game.

For example:
1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.Nc3 Nf6
5.Ng5 0-0
6.Bxf7+ Rxf7
7.Nxf7 Kxf7

What's your plan now?

ionadowman 98 ( +1 | -1 )
It's one of those lines... ... that as a beginner, I would have preferred the White pieces, knowing that it is not so good for White, but the R+P seems easier to play, and you haven't given up any (or much) material. It is also a bit disruptive of Black's game for a couple of moves or so.
Experience teaches one how better to handle N+B, so that now I'd be more than happy to take the Black pieces in this kind of position. The piece combination is more flexible and mobile: the R+P don't necessarily work so well together until the board opens up a bit, and White is left with a rather rigid kind of game.
Position after 7...Kxf7:
w
Finally, White has given up two of his 3 active pieces to achieve not a great deal really, so his immediate plan will be to develop his game. Maybe a closed sort of position is indicated, with pawns settling on the light squares to make up for the absence of the f-Bishop?
zhnkiu 19 ( +1 | -1 )
Thankyou ionadowman Perhaps this fixes the situation:

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 Nc6
3.Bc4 Bc5
4.Nc3 Nf6
*5.e3 e6
6.Ng5 0-0
7.Bxf7+ Rxf7
8.Nxf7 Kxf7
to avoid some complications for white.

I would be interested in playing this unrated, if anyone has any interest in it.
spijker 2 ( +1 | -1 )
I don't understand the moves e3 and e6.
ionadowman 21 ( +1 | -1 )
5.e3 e6... ...zhnkiu, did you intend 5.d3 d6, maybe? If so, it is an OK line in the Giuoco Pianissimo.
My comments still stand: Black has the easier and more mobile game, though how big an edge I guess can only be determined by experience.
Cheers,
Ion
zhnkiu 42 ( +1 | -1 )
yes, d3 d6. sorry, in my head i flipped the board around twice. symmetric...

as white, if i remember, i would try to convert my extra pawn. novices sometimes have to sacrifice a N for 3 pawns, sometimes they get less...

yes, as we understand the game, we aren't as fooled by imbalances.

but then i do bring this up as a tutorial example. when i was young, as my first study, this gave me a good understanding of the relative power of the pieces.
ionadowman 158 ( +1 | -1 )
I have had a closer look... ...poking around the position as modified by the insertion of 5.d3 d6
w
(White to play)
The first thought is to castle, or maybe play Bg5, say, but, paradoxically maybe, there is something to be said for 9.Na5 here. Its purpose is frankly to get rid of Black's dark-square bishop - and hence the bishop pair - thereby reducing the impact of the dark-square weakness in the centre. It also gets rid of White's remaining active piece, but he is left with no real weaknesses, and a considerable potential for improving his position.
How can Black make use of his superior piece activity and lead in development? I find it quite hard to come up with a plan to exploit or even to retain the edge. Mind you, I've never said Black's edge was any more than marginal, but it may be that it isn't permanent either. Note that sooner or later, White will open a file for himself, which will not be easy for black to challenge, having only 2 heavy pieces against 3. How about the open files Black has available? The a-file doesn't look all that useful after White plays a3 to free up his QR. With the KB gone, the f-file doesn't look easy to exploit either.
It looks as though zhnkiu has issued a challenge to accepted theory that needs to be answered. Intriguing. Whoever takes up zhnkiu's challenge might consider playing 2 games, the White side and the Black...
;-)
zhnkiu 25 ( +1 | -1 )
as white,re:Na4 i would not want to reduce my number of attackers by premature exchanges. As for Bg5, i would rather set up the pin with Qf3 first...

no point to castle yet, since you're castling with no support. so i'd use the tempo for something else...

give me some time to consider f4...


ionadowman 92 ( +1 | -1 )
I've had a look at 9.f4... It looks like the kind of break move White would be looking for. But right now it has a downside: 9...Bg4 10.Qd2 Nh5 (thr. 11...Qh4). Maybe f4 needs preparation, because it does seem to be desirable from a strategic point of view.
I can appreciate your reluctance for further exchanges, zhnkiu, but, in respect of the 9.Na4 move, you have to assess which is the more valuable: the Knight for White, or the c4-Bishop (including the B-pair) for Black. Probably the capture will come at a net cost of one tempo for White, so that also has to be brought into the equation.
The reason for my liking the 9.Na4 move for White, is that I don't like it for Black! I really would rather not lose that Bishop! If White were to play at move 9 a temporising development move like 9.Bd2, I would even consider 9...a6 in order to obviate any immediate chance that the Bishop will be exchanged off.
Cheers,
Ion
premium_steve 22 ( +1 | -1 )
how about 9.g4? that's the move i'd try, i think.

i'd try to attack blacks knight and maybe develop the queen on the kingside.
castle long use the rook on the g-file possibly.
are there chances for a quick kingside attack for white?
ionadowman 74 ( +1 | -1 )
9.g4 ... ... might be feasible if d3 d6 haven't been played, but if they have (see diagram 17/12, 4 postings back) then it just hangs the g-pawn:
9.g4? Bxg4 10.f3 Bh3 and if, say, 11.Na5, Black can even get away with 11...Nxe4!? 12.dxe4 Qh4+ 13.Kd2 Qf2+ 14.Qe2 Qd4+ 15.Ke1 Qxa4 with a big edge.
What if we were to prepare g4 by playing h3 first? This seems OK, more or less:
9.h3 Be6 (developing the last minor piece)
10.g4 d5 Now, the wiseacres tell us that the best way of combating a flank action is to strike in the centre. Very well.
11.g5 Ne8
12.exd5 Bxd5
13.Nxd5 Qxd5
14.Rg1 Kg8 etc
w
White to play: where to from here?

I don't know about you, but I like Black in this position...