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| Posted by premium_steve ability-tw.com 2/02/2003 19:28:08 Play online chess |  Subject: what's the absolute worst first move?Message: i was trying to think what it might be, and i decided maybe f3 would be pretty bad for white to play. what do you guys think? is white at a disadvantage if he plays a move like this? |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/02/2003 19:58:01 Play online chess | Hmmm... Message: There are no absolutes in chess... But I think anything besides (e4) (d4) (c4) and (Nf3) would be inferior... Bro... |
| Posted by triangulator ability-tw.com 2/02/2003 19:59:51 Play online chess | f3 Message: is playable it has been played by masters. I would think Nh3 or Na3 would be pretty bad |
| Posted by caldazar ability-tw.com 2/02/2003 22:09:07 Play online chess | Message: I've had an opponent play 1. Nh3 against me in a tournament game; it's not all bad. True, it's not actually good either, but it's not ALL bad. The point is that after 1.Nh3 d5 2. g3 e5 3. Bg2, White intends to enter into a King's Indian setup where he doesn't have to toss his knight (which would normally be on f3) somewhere in order to play f4, after which he can drop the h3-knight back to f2. Kind of weird, and it doesn't really work all that well, but at least White doesn't have to worry about the latest wrinkle in the Sicilian Najdorf. |
| Posted by atrifix ability-tw.com 2/02/2003 22:19:03 Play online chess | AFAIK Message: Current theory regards 1. g4 to be the worst move on the board, Black obtaining a slight advantage by means of 1... e5 2. Bg2 h5 3. gxh5 Qg5 4. Bf3 Qh4(=+, last I knew). All other first moves allow Black to equalize, but not more. Of course, their practical chances vary a great deal (more games are won by 1. g4 than by 1. Na3, for example). |
| Posted by lordoftherings ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 06:27:34 Play online chess | i think 1.f3 Message: what is the idea of the move?? to help 2.e4 ?? |
| Posted by blindio ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 08:00:45 Play online chess | A pawn move . . . Message: . . .rather than a Knight, would be worse - because a pawn structure flaw is for keeps. 1. f3 is an inferior way of supporting a later central advance and weakens the pawn structure in a detrimental fashion in the event of a later 0-0. With g4 you can at least fianchetto. |
| Posted by jordian31 ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 08:18:26 Play online chess | Message: any first move i make!!!!! :) |
| Posted by gunnarsamuelsson ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 09:16:45 Play online chess | f3 Message: Is the worst move I would say..for whats its worth.Any master using it would surely use it just because of that fact, not because it was playable. Distinction: f3 is not playable but bad, any other word for it would undermine chess terminology. Ive heard f3 is called the "fried fox" or something, I would say good players use it only because its interesting to see if they can manage anyway. |
| Posted by gunnarsamuelsson ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 10:29:01 Play online chess | A computer test of 1.f3. Message: Chessmaster vs Chessmaster(8000) time 15 min result:draw Chessmaster vs Morphy (chessmaster personality considering positional factors highly, weaker then the cm personality in most positions) time 15 min result: 0-1 !! I know this test can be criticized and hardly represent refined scientific method, but anyway a nice study! |
| Posted by keiserpaul ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 12:44:24 Play online chess | atrifix Message: Playing 2.Bg2 after 1.g4 e5 is not the best move. Grobs' recommendation was 2.d3 (seeking K-side advantage) and Basman usually plays 2.h3. (he also plays h3 after 1. .. d5) |
| Posted by keiserpaul ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 12:52:40 Play online chess | lordoftherings Message: The original idea of 1.f3 was a transposition to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit : 1.f3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 and 4.e4 or 1.f3 d5 2.e4 dxe 3.Nc3 exf 4.Nxf3. Another idea is in conjunction with Nh3-f2. I have tried this a few times, but this set-up takes too much time : 1.f3 d5 2.g3 e5 3.Nh3 c5 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.Nf2 Nf6 6.0-0 |
| Posted by keiserpaul ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 12:55:20 Play online chess | brobishkin Message: Could you give me one reason why moves as 1.Nc3 or 1.g3 are inferior ? |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 13:07:25 Play online chess | Keiser... Message: Nc3 and g3 are acceptable but give away the initiative to black... But I will say that those two moves are just slightly inferior to the other opening move I suggested... After Nc3 black can answer with d5 due to the fact that it's covered by the black Queen... After g3 with a white fiancetto kindside coming up, it hands black an extra move for center domination... That was the only reason I didn't mention those two moves (Nc3 and g3)... Bro... |
| Posted by atrifix ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 15:44:47 Play online chess | Well Message: I had not seen 2. d3 mentioned before (although 2... d5 would seem to be the natural response). 2. h3, to my understanding, leads to the same type of position after 2... h5. As for Nc3, f3 and g3; Nc3 tends not to offer as many practical chances as normal moves, but White can at least contest the initiative after, for example, 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4. 1. f3 tends to not put up a fight for the initiative (and consequently has even less practical results), but White can still probably equalize. 1. g3, however, is quite powerful in the hands of a prepared opponent. The idea is not so much as to stay in Benko System or otherwise unique territory, but simply to obtain a favorable transposition to the KID or KIA, etc. Consequently this opening offers White quite a few practical chances if he is prepared, but it's hardly good as a weapon in itself. |
| Posted by pureredwhiteblu ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 16:04:46 Play online chess | worst move... Message: I would say any rook pawn move... but that is just me. A3, A4 H3, H4 |
| Posted by gutschi ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 17:13:13 Play online chess | well... Message: ... I think the worst bad move is 1. Nf3 if the second move is 2. Ng8 and then 3. Nf3 ... 4. Ng8 and so on... :) No, joking apart... there's no worst first move... even h4 is possible I think |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 18:25:35 Play online chess | Atrifix... Message: If whites reaction to 1.Nc3 d5 was 2.e4... What would he do if black plays 2. ... d4?... Black still clearly has the initiative and after whites next move (example: 3.Ne2) black can play 3. ... e5 securing a space advantage... So you can see how hard it is to contest the iniative once you've given it away... Bro... |
| Posted by triangulator ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 18:28:42 Play online chess | gtushi Message: I did not get that we are talkin about first moves for white, and Nf3 is a very solid move! it has been played by GM gery kasparov and I bet you would have a lot of trouble beating someone your level against it |
| Posted by atrifix ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 18:49:33 Play online chess | Dunst Opening Message: 1. Nc3 d5 2. e4 d5 3. Nce2 e5 4. f4 Nc6 5. Nf3 is =. |
| Posted by myway316 ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 19:33:30 Play online chess | Durkin's Attack... Message: ...1.Na3 is a real stinkeroo! While we're on the subject,what's the worst for Black? How about the Fred:1.e4 f5??? |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 19:59:13 Play online chess | Atrifix... Message: Point taken... Lets not go to 4. ... exf4 5.Nxf4 Bd6 and so on... Napoleon had success with this opening back in the early 1800's against De Remusat so I do know it's tangable lines of play can develop into such likes as the French, Caro Kann or even the Closed Sicilian... But it's still somewhat unorthidox... Bro... |
| Posted by premium_steve ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 20:20:43 Play online chess | i've played 1...f5 Message: against e4 just recently in 3- or 5-minute games. i guess it's kind of bad, yeah :). back to the 1.f3 move for white..... i think it's fun to play f3, and then move the king out on the second move.... it isn't all that bad, and it's fun to see how your opponent reacts (i've only done this against good friends though). i've played f3 followed by Kf2 in blitz and, continuing normally, i've done fine with it against average opponents. i think it would certainly get good laughs as well to make white's position even worse. maybe white's first moves could be f3, Kf2, Kg3, h3, Kh2 or something like that. funny eh? :D |
| Posted by triangulator ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 20:34:41 Play online chess | yes Message: I don't like f5, but e4 e5 nf3 f5 should be considerd I would play that as white or black |
| Posted by pawnstar ability-tw.com 2/03/2003 22:20:15 Play online chess | but... Message: atrifix, if black has achieved equality after 5 moves surely 1.Nc3? is bad. |
| Posted by maca ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 08:27:24 Play online chess | worst move Message: i think 1.a4 would worst, becouse an attemp to get your rook in game this way would only result to answer 1 - e6 or e7, and rook couldn't come to game... same way works 1.h4 |
| Posted by triangulator ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 08:59:57 Play online chess | acually Message: I have played a4 vs a 1700 rated friend ina rated game I won, we played a4 a5, h4 h5- very interesting game |
| Posted by weenink ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 09:19:11 Play online chess | 1. g4 Message: is absolutly the worst |
| Posted by atrifix ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 09:56:33 Play online chess | But Message: ALL openings lead to theoretic equality (except clearly unsound ones like 1. e4 f5, 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f6, etc.)--the only real considerations are practical chances, not really how many moves it takes for the position to be clearly equal. 1. Nc3 tends to offer less practical chances and lead to situations like a reversed old indian or hungarian defense, so a lot of people avoid it (rightly so). As for 1. a4, I've seen this played with the idea of transposing to a reversed Budapest with an extra tempo (1. a4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 3. e4), which is at least interesting. 1. h4, intending h4-h5-h6, can be played, but it's probably not entirely sound. |
| Posted by keiserpaul ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 13:43:15 Play online chess | brobishkin Message: The first idea behind 1.Nc3 is to a certain extent related to Alekhine's Defence. The knight is used to lure the pawns so far forward that they become targets of attack or that attacking opportunities occur in the area that is no longer protected by them. The second idea is that it is not only a provocative move, but also a sound developing move. 1.e4 and 1.d4 make development possible, but are not developing moves in themselves. Move likes Nc3 (and Nf3) on the other hand immediately develop a piece. There are other ideas , but I cannot explain them all in detail, I do not want to write a book here. Anyway, saying that 1.Nc3 is given away the initiative is nonsense. Just have a look at game board board #554015. In the first eleven moves, there are 5 Knight moves and 4 Queens move. I think this is plenty of initiative ! |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/04/2003 17:42:24 Play online chess | Nice game... Message: Black obviously errored when playing (5. ... f6) in which you showed after your brilliant Knight sacrifice (opening up the King side attack), but to use this as an example is not the best way to proove a point... Black simply gave you back the initative after his 5th move... Shall we try a game maybe to discuss or theories?... You as white with 1.Nc3 and me as black playing 1. ... d5... Would love to discuss this move for move... 1.e4 and 1.d4 are developing moves due to the fact of securing central squares and opening up diagonals for the Bishops... Seigbert Tarrasch discribed the developing principle in chess is to maximize the amount of force at your disposal as a combination of force, space, and time... You also want to control as much of the board as possible, so that the enemy has fewer useful posts for his own pieces... Finally, you want to achieve these goals sooner than your opponent, and therefore control the tempo of the game... Bro... One more thing to add... Why is it Grandmasters play the undeveloping (as you say) d4 and e4 more often (and a lot more often) than Nc3 and Nf3?... There's a reason... |
| Posted by keiserpaul ability-tw.com 2/05/2003 03:57:06 Play online chess | brobishkin Message: After 4. .. Be6 it's very usefull to play 5. .. f6 , this move is considered in most 1.Nc3 books with an exclamation mark, but I agree Siegbert would have called this an "ugly" move. You have a point when saying Grandmasters does not play often 1.Nc3. But nevertheless, Ekjebaerg ( I don't know if I spell his name in the right way) won the 10th Correspondence Europe Championship, and he always opened with 1.Nc3. I think it is only the fashion. You cannot say 1.Nc3 and loose, just as you cannot say 1.e4 and win. I think it is more important you are playing an opening that you know thoroughfully and that you trust, than one that is considered to be the best. Playing it is the best way , so I gladly accept your challenge ! |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/05/2003 07:10:13 Play online chess | Keiserpaul... Message: Like I stated before... There are no absolutes in chess... There are good moves and bad moves... Im not stating the Nc3 is a bad move... Im simply stating that e4, d4, c4, and Nf3 are just slightly and I mean "slightly" better... Thanks and lets enjoy or game... Im not here to call you stupid or names like a child... I'm here to learn lessons in the game of chess... Wish you the best of moves... I'd wish you luck, but there is no luck in chess... Bro... |
| Posted by atrifix ability-tw.com 2/05/2003 09:50:10 Play online chess | 5... f6 Message: is not a mistake, it's the main line. Even 6. c3 d3 has been played before,e although AFAIK, white has only responded 7. Nh4, and 7. Nxe5 is a novelty. If the piece sacrifice is sound, then 6... c5 is probably better, but the sacrifice is still a bit speculative. |
| Posted by v_glorioso12 ability-tw.com 2/05/2003 15:00:40 Play online chess | any wing pawn moves 2 spaces Message: and g4 are prob. the 3 worst... |
| Posted by brobishkin ability-tw.com 2/05/2003 20:58:42 Play online chess | A confession... Message: While looking (deep) into the Dunst opening... I have discovered and was surprised of the Kingside attack possibilities white actually has... I here proclaim that both Keiserpaul and even Atrifix statements do hold some weight... Bro... |
Chess news: With Another Draw, Chess Championship Match Remains Tied — Game 10 of the world chess championship match between Viswanathan Anand of India, the titleholder, and Veselin Topalov of Bulgaria, ended in a relatively uneventful draw on Friday. With only two games remaining in the best-of-12 series, the players are tied with 5 points apiece. If the match should remain tied after the last two games — which is a real possibility at the moment — it would go to a tie-breaker of four rapid games (each player starts with 25 minutes and has 10 seconds added to his time after each move). Such a tie-breaker was used in the 2006 world chess championship match between Topalov and Vladimir Kramnik of Russia. After each player won a game, and one ended ... Playing for the World Title, Minus Any Fireworks — Before a world chess championship match, players spend months looking at their opponent’s games and studying opening systems, often with the aid of chess computers and databases. They also hire trainers, who are called seconds, to help. It is a time- and labor-intensive process. That is one of the reasons that fans look forward to the chess matches. They want to see what the players will do and what new ideas they have discovered, particularly in the openings. The current world chess championship match between Viswanathan Anand of India, the titleholder, and Veselin Topalov of Bulgaria has been as closely contested as predicted. But there have been no eye-opening innovations. Game ... Anand's missed opportunity — The chess World Championship is on a knife-edge. But Anand could have made a mark in this game. Anand and Topalov go into the 12th game of their chess match today with scores level. If drawn, tie-break rapid games will be played on Thursday. Topalov's declaration before the match that he would neither offer nor accept a draw has clearly had a liberating effect on both players, resulting in one of the most entertaining world chess championship finals we have seen in years. All the games have been long and hard-fought, so it's hardly surprising that tiredness is affecting play. Anand missed several chances to win in game 9, Topalov had a promising endgame in game 10 but ... | |